why r u shilling those damn cups so hard?

Like the paper/plastic grocery bag debate, the ceramic vs paper/plastic cup bit has become quite a popular discussion piece. But an important bit gets left out of the equation:

Lets say you're a really careful user, and you are able to use your ceramic cup for 4000 uses ("well over 3000" I'd say) I solved out your energy numbers with plastic using a standard 1 unit of energy, which gives the following:

Plastic: 1 Paper: .46 Ceramic: 640

(I used the energy numbers, because according to your air pollution numbers, 3000 uses isn't enough...anyway)

Now that we have the standardized energy usage data, we can easily find out how much energy is required per use by dividing by the number of uses, and rank the cups accordingly. Performing these calculations:

Plastic: 1/use Paper: .46/use Ceramic: .16/use

Indeed, we see that ceramic is the energy winner per use.

But it's not really leading by a lot. What would happen if were super adventurous, and used a paper or plastic cup 3 times, rather than 1:

Plastic: .33/use Paper: .15/use Ceramic: .16/use

By simply re-using a paper cup 3 times, we've kicked ceramic's butt. And even the cheapest rolled-paper, waxed cup is capable of holding 3 cups of coffee. Similarly, a plastic cup used 5 times would trump the ceramic.

But what if we were able to make a much more sturdy cup for three times the energy per cup, but it lasted for a month before you had to chuck it. It could be made of molded paper pulp (like the Fibrid furniture project a few years back http://www.fibrid.com/ ) and sold in sets of twelve to last you all year. Such a cup would use this energy profile as compared to ceramic (assuming a 30 use life):

Paper: .046/use Ceramic: .16/use

Even using much more energy, the paper cup still uses less than 1/3 the energy of the ceramic.

I really love your cups Graham, and I think the visual and conceptual design is strong, but according to your numbers, as far as treehuggability goes, ceramic cups can always be beaten by making paper cups that last just a tiny bit longer. That is, unless we revert to the way ceramics used to be treated in every culture that developed them; as heirlooms which were used tens of thousands of times over many years.

I chose energy also to illustrate how designers are going to have to start re-considering their manufacturing choices, especially in light of our reliance on fossil fuels for energy, and the impending high-price peak oil predictions in the next 10-20 years. For more on peak oil and design, take a look at "Time for an oil change"

http://www.idfuel.com/index.php?p=325&more=1&c=1

---------------------------
Fire up your creativity at www.idfuel.com

Alain,
I can see why you might ask this...
It's because I have 2 projects currently! the cups and treehugger. I hope
you can understand that I would want to promote one project
via the other. I also have treehugger banners on my cup site.
thanks,
Graham

Dominic,

Thanks for your comments. I didn't check your math
but it sounds like it makes sense to me and paper
might be a good solution if you could use it more
than once.

I didn't realize that my cups were on the border
when I developed them. I'm learning about this
stuff too and don't proclaim to be an expert. That
being said, I do plan to constantly improve the
content on Treehugger and become an expert
source to for people to refer to. To do this, I am
hiring writers that are smarter than I am
in this department. And we will use useful
commentary like yours to guide us when we err.

One thing that I am interested in looking at
is lower heat fired ceramics and glazeless
ceramics. We featured some of Heath ceramics
on the site previously that use lower heat firing.
My cups require an initial firing, then a glaze firing
and then a decal firing. As you can imagine, that's a lot of energy! Let's hope that they get used a lot!

Thanks for speaking up!
Graham

A couple of things to keep in mind:

#1 - there is some concern about drinking out of plastic/styrofoam cups due to the leaching of chemicals (endocrine disruptors) into the beverage

#2 - landfill space
valuable land is being gobbled up by the disposal of huge volumes of these things, so the value of having a functional landfil should be taken into consideration. one only needs to look at Toronto to understand the massive cost and headache involved in trying to create a new landfil space. i wonder how much energy they are burning up, trucking all their garbage to the US? who wants a landfill located near their home? and larger scope, who wants vast areas of their landscape used as a dumping ground for piles of seeping, reeking waste?
styrofoam is a real space-hog. since it is mostly air, it takes up a huge amount of room in landfills (which is especially frustrating, since it could be recycled). cardboard also takes up a lot of space.
but my ceramic mug will not go into that landfill. if it gets a crack in it, i will use it as a planter to start seedlings or grow small plants (also a great way to re-use styrofoam/plastic/cardboard cups). even if i break it, i can still use it for drainage in a plant pot. (incidentally, i have also found broken up chunks of packing styrofoam, or even 'peanuts', to be great for this, if you haven't been breaking any dishes lately).

thus, i choose to use cermaic because it creates less solid waste, and doesn't come with the possible health risks that styrofoam does. as a bonus, a nice mug of your own is beautiful and personalized.

Great article. It leads to a couple of other questions. 1)How long does a typical ceramic cup last - 3000 uses seems high. 2)I thought the best enviromental science today indicates that land fills are the best way to deal with trash.

Add to the debate

As always, the most environmentally friendly option is to use what you already have rather than replace it with something shinier.

The landfill question is excellent, and we might also ask about who makes which of these cups. If the data is about mass-produced cups v. your local university/college/artisan/activist. Might exploitative wages hide another cost on the paper? I don't know; I wish I did. I have a feeling that exploitative wages might lurk for a lot of ceramic cups as well.

Jared is the winner. If you own a ceramic cup, you've already spent all the resources to manufacture it -- you can't unspend the resources by not using it. So this debate skirts the central issue for anyone who already owns a ceramic cup, which is, well, basically everybody.

The worst possible option is buying a ceramic cup when you already have one, so if you plan on doing that, admit you're indulging yourself at a small cost to the environment, and make it up another way.

Does anyone know where the Dutch study can be found?
THANKS

The pro-paper crowd is ignoring one thing: ceramic beats paper and styrofoam hands-down in the utility department.

Paper is a terrible insulator and is not tasteless. Styrofoam holds heat fairly well, but they're too easy to tip over.

Ceramic, on the other hand, keeps hot drinks hot and is less likely to dump coffee all over your desk.

My best coffee mugs are hand-thrown ceramics by local artists. I like supporting regional artisans, and well cared-for ceramic mugs last almost forever.

To me, the elegance and utilty of ceramic mugs tips the scale in their favor.

What about the fact that styrofoam is not biodegradable? Landfill space is not the only issue. I have a problem with this stuff just floating around in the environment for eons. It's not natural, and we're leaving an insane volume of styrofoam for generations to deal with.
So, I think looking at this from only an "energy use" standpoint is a mistake in itself.

Does the study take into consideration the lids of said disposable cups as well?

Alain, presumably you're going to wash your paper cup if you are going to use it a couple of times? Don't forget to add the environmental cost of this into your calculations.
M

I am an environmental manager for a large catering company and need to advise clients which is the most environmentally friendly option: Ceramic, paper, EPS of ecotainer coffee cups and why. there are a lot of opinions out there, where can I get a definative answer from.

regards

J

I would like to emphasize what other's have mentioned. REUSE! Most of us already own enough ceramic and/or metal travel mugs to share with others. We don't need to buy more, not for a very long time.

I am interested in this issue because we're about to sponsor a paper free day at the local cafes where I live. We're buying up used mugs form our local version of 'Value Village" and offering them for a donation to those folks who've forgotten to bring their own. We're encouraging folks to donate old mugs as well, and to swap out if they'd like. The emphasis is on REUSING. AND FUN!

Hey Guys,

I loved the article on ceramic versus paper and plastic, but I have another challenge question on the same line. I work for a very large Camp in East Texas that is not "Green". I've started recycling in my office and personally take plastics and paper to the neighboring city's recycling center.

However, I want to do more... I want us to switch from styrofoam use to paper use. Of course most people out here don't believe in Global Warming and tease me about being "green." I need cost effective proof (which I'm already working on) and environmental proof that paper is better.

Any addvice or tips you could give me would be great. Along with how to win the arguement, "Styrofoam lasts longer than paper." I hate that, all I can think of is that they're only using it once anyway! ARGH! I need strong evidence and a strong arguement to go to the bosses with in order to win. And I already know that it will be an uphill battle from where I am standing.

Thank you,

Your green friend in TX

Please oh please reveal the name and whereabouts of the Dutch study referenced in the article.

I just posted a new video about using paper cups on my web video blog Real World Green . If you'd like to check out Eric's take on all this.

I work for a major vision care company here in Sacramentoi; we recently went even greener than we had been, and part of that process was to issue company logo mugs to all employees. It's a massive mug, and over the course of a couple, perhaps three years, mine will see that 3k break point, and many of us drink more than one or two cups a day. We still have styrofoam cups available on a per-need basis, but the volume of breakroom trash in our call center has dropped by two thirds since we all got our own mugs.

I think the key here is culture. Many of us are already green-oriented where I work, so we took the opportunities to expand the mix of environmental responsibility and corporate profit as far as possible. For our friend in Texas, perhaps you should consider mugs with the camp logo as advertising expense, and lean in the direction of recycled paper products and recycling as ways to defray overhead. Corporate is down right possessive about the aluminum cans and bottles -- reimbursement on the bottles and cans defrays operating costs -- and we even have days appointed for computer/elecronic cleanup, when a clean cycling company comes to pick up electronics no longer needed by the company and carts away excess computer parts, cel phones, etc at no cost to the employees. We treat it as a way to declutter and to benefit local schools, which get any working computer parts before the rest is cycled safely.

Just some ides.

Pax.

A few weeks ago I saw Graham's mug for sale at my local coffee shop and thought of these posts. I have to admit I also bought my brother one for Christmas in spite of the fact that I know he already has mugs. Perhaps it was an unwise decision on my part. I hope it at least gets some use.

Thanks for the analysis -- I'll be sharing this with students in my geography of coffee classes -- to prove that coffee is connected to everything!

Hi, we use stainless steel mugs that last for many many years and can then be fully re-cycled.
QED

Those greek cups are silly. I'm a little tired of New York hippness. Last I heard they were imported from Thailand or something anyway.

this website has touched my life

The two most popular paper cups on the market are one with up to 10% recycled paper content (90% virgin pulp) and a petroleum liner. The other one is 100% virgin pulp with a PLA liner most likely made of genetically modified corn or soy.

Any kind of re-usable mug is a better choice.

The value of a tree and oil are overlooked here. A tree and oil have more value in terms of C02 if left in the ground. It will soon be the case that both are worth more in carbon credits if left in the ground. No doubt we will all soon be paying extra for paper and plastic.

Ceramic is good to drink from but for carrying about, stainless steel lasts indefinetly. That reminds me....I need to get one myself

I've been trying to find more accurate information on the reusable cup topic for a while.

I want to find statistics that include the plastic lid that is very very often include. What about the cup cozies? What about the energy it takes to deliver the cup to the coffee places? What about the energy it takes to haul away the garbage and put in the landfill and is it then hauled away after that?

Does anyone know where I can get the true numbers?

As someone else said on this thread.. a while back.. what about the cost of the landfill itself.. could that spce be used for something more valuable?

Any info you can give me I'd appreciate.

Thanks.

BAM

Can one not recycle paper coffee cups?

what if the cups are in a hotel for the employees in the cafateria? i think sometimes the concept of recycling is applied to something larger than just the individual self

You can get a head start on the 3,000 limit by buying second hand. The older and more worn it looks the better your head start and it prevents it being thrown out as unsellable.

Could anyone direct me to the Dutch environmental ministry's report on this. I would like to see the procedure they used and variables they accounted for in the lifetime footprint.
I am working to implement a reusable plates and mugs program at my work and need hard data.
Speaking of which, does anyone know of a database of research results on environmental impact and sustainability topics?
Thanks for any help you can offer!
Tim